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Post by verb on Mar 31, 2013 6:02:48 GMT -5
I figured I'd start a thread here as a continuation of something started on a tournament page on Facebook so all ASA members have the opportunity to participate, not just those on the tourney page.
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Post by verb on Mar 31, 2013 6:09:47 GMT -5
I propose that prior to the start of the 2013/14 season, the ASA come up with an operating budget for the year and ask for donations from it's members. I would be happy to help contribute and that way, if the budget is raised, the ASA no longer needs to charge fees for any tournaments during that season.
I feel this would allow the ASA full functionality, require less work for the Treasurer and tournament organizers, keep any tournament fees paid with the local club/host, and perhaps interest more fringe Subbuteo players to join the ASA since it would be absolutely free.
I also propose capping the amount that a tournament organizer can charge for any given ASA Sanctioned tournament so it stays accessible for all? $20 max perhaps? $15?
We would need to take into account venue, food and awards. It seems that $20 could be necessary in places that have expensive venue rentals due to limited availability.
Thoughts?
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Post by mikeewer on Mar 31, 2013 7:38:10 GMT -5
My suggestion based on one from one of MiSTFA's most active members was to cap the ASA fees paid based on the number of tournaments that count towards the rankings. His suggestion was a $10 cap, which seemed to coincide nicely with 5 tournaments.
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Post by paulpate on Mar 31, 2013 17:58:37 GMT -5
This is a mission statement Tom wrote without trying:
We are a nonprofit organization, relying on player donations (the $2 minimum fee), Those monies are mostly used to help host The National Championship, and sometimes supply eligible ASA World Cup players uniforms (if the amount is a reasonable one), help pay for trophies, equipment, facility rental fees, etc..
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Post by paulpate on Mar 31, 2013 17:59:28 GMT -5
Here's the one I suggested: ASA is a non-profit organization run by volunteers and hobbyists that would like to promote their passion for Subbuteo across America. Competition and collecting is for all ages and skill levels. The ASA maintains a national ranking system, a website, forums, and a place for local clubs to interact. It also promotes an annual national tournament.
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Post by paulpate on Mar 31, 2013 18:00:20 GMT -5
Just thought it would be helpful to have one so we know where we're sending our money and what it is for, even if it is a small amount.
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Post by Daniel Cranston on Apr 1, 2013 0:15:01 GMT -5
I propose that prior to the start of the 2013/14 season, the ASA come up with an operating budget for the year and ask for donations from it's members. I would be happy to help contribute and that way, if the budget is raised, the ASA no longer needs to charge fees for any tournaments during that season. I feel this would allow the ASA full functionality, require less work for the Treasurer and tournament organizers, keep any tournament fees paid with the local club/host, and perhaps interest more fringe Subbuteo players to join the ASA since it would be absolutely free. I also propose capping the amount that a tournament organizer can charge for any given ASA Sanctioned tournament so it stays accessible for all? $20 max perhaps? $15? We would need to take into account venue, food and awards. It seems that $20 could be necessary in places that have expensive venue rentals due to limited availability. Thoughts? I don't think there is need to cap the amount organizers request. Most of what organizers request is to cover food and trophies. If you are going to cap it then organizers will just ask for venue, ASA fee, trophy fee and just ask people to pay their share for food outside of straight requesting. I've never considered tournament fees being an issue for players. That hardest issue to surmount is the distance and cost of travel. A registration fee is chump change compared to a plane ticket, hotels, or long distance driving. If there were issues with organizers raising up the prices beyond what is reasonable, then I would consider documentation for expenses submitted to the ASA be required, but not a cap limit. However, I don't think this has been a problem in the past or likely will be in the future.
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Post by ccousino on Apr 1, 2013 5:58:18 GMT -5
I agree with Daniel, travel distance hinders players from competition. We have small clusters of players in various locations. Fees are small and I would not consider this as something that would deter a player from competing. In my case Brandon and I travel two hours distance on a Saturday just to practice against someone who plays and wants to compete at a higher level. Competitive travel for an ASA sanctioned event becomes much more difficult until the local area has enough players to hold the event themselves. Just an opinion from a new player.
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Post by verb on Apr 1, 2013 8:27:15 GMT -5
Some of the guys at the upcoming Michigan tournament pointed out that they have no desire for rankings or to go to the Nationals so they figured "why should I pay $2 to play on my own pitch." Mike wanted to make it an ASA sanctioned tournament so the fee has to be charged. While it is a small amount, I understand the principle behind their thoughts. I'm tempted to just pay their fees as a thank you for bringing their pitches out to play on, although I don't want to offend anyone.
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The ASA will front up to $350 to the host of the Nationals, but they get $330 of that back provided 22 people show up to play. With this, I don't think the ASA has the need to charge even $2 for tournaments. Aside from the money needed for the Nationals, what are the expenses of the ASA? Website/forum costs. Possibly a jersey for someone to play at The World Cup. What else?
Taking the Nationals out of the equation, the budget is probably less than $150-200 a year right?
That's why I think you should just ask for donations at the start of each season. If the budget is met, no fees need to be paid that season. I fully support the ASA and I'll even pay more than my share to keep it fully funded, I just think the fees are unnecessary given the amount in the Treasury.
It doesn't matter to me what the Board decides. I'll pay my $2 at every tournament (or probably donate more than that at the start of every season.) I just don't think things should be done because "that's the way they've always been done." Let's eliminate the need of sending in tournament fees.
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Post by paulpate on Apr 1, 2013 15:19:28 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I don't think anybody has a problem paying the $2.
This discussion was this: It is nice to know where your money goes when you pay, no matter how small the amount. That was all.
I think we all would like to have an ASA sanctioned event and happily chip in $2. I mentioned I would pay just to have the national rankings. I can't speak for Michael, but I think he was just trying to illustrate a point of view by stating he didn't care about what is going on outside of our club.
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Post by Daniel Cranston on Apr 2, 2013 13:49:08 GMT -5
Interesting posts. I think the donation concept would work for the ASA because it is low budget.
The critism I see is that by making the ASA funded by donations, it will most likely burden only a few people, particularly those involved in keeping the ASA running in the first place (in general). Yes, the budget would be low enough that this wouldn't really matter, but I am meaning this to be more conceptual. Essentially, I feel that this change would give off the feeling that the ASA is more centrally run rather than based on everyone (even though the donations would be up to anyone).
On the other hand, maybe there is a chance that people opt to register their tournaments with the ASA that otherwise wouldn't have. However I don't think this is likely as the main deterrents to hosting a tournament as an ASA Open is that 1. It has to be announced to everyone and people may want to limit the number of participants / who comes to the event. (I would have to read up on the rules to see if this is allowed currently or not) 2. You have to follow the general ASA rules for playing the tournament when clubs and locations sometimes prefer to play with their own variations instead.
All in all, I think this change is do-able. But I think it is a wash in terms of benefits vs negatives. As for the uses of the funds, I agree there is room to improve and discuss upon what to use it for. For instance I would be okay with potentially a stipend to the organizer/club who hosts the National tournament which doesn't have to be repaid. Perhaps relate the stipend amount to the amount of tournament fees collected throughout the year for instance.
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Post by Zach Walker on Apr 2, 2013 17:41:28 GMT -5
This discussion is fantastic. Thank you everyone for weighing in and please keep the comments coming.
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Post by paulpate on Apr 3, 2013 12:11:23 GMT -5
I don't think a $2 entry fee to ASA sanctioned tournaments will deter anybody from entering. They either want to be ASA sanctioned or they don't. To be honest, it is challenge enough to get 3 or more players together at any given time. Paying $2 is inconsequential.
Here's my (joe public subbuteo player) point of view on a few things.
1. I like the idea of a national community of players, experts, hobbyists, newcomers, etc. 2. I like national rankings and a governing body. 3. I like the idea of an annual national championship tourney. But, I won't travel very far or spend very much to get there. 4. I'm a decent player. My son is real good. We'll NEVER go to Europe to play. It just isn't how we view this game. 5. I enjoy the group of LOCAL players (we are fortunate to have a few) here. So, we might be inclined to spend 20 bucks to support our group (say get something for the bar who hosts us all the time) as opposed to sending it to the ASA. 6. The thing I enjoy most about Subbuteo is collecting my teams, building my field, and getting my butt kicked by my son.
Here's some items I think the ASA would be wasting their time with:
1. Trying to provide material items to clubs such as gifts, trophies, etc. 2. Prize money for a national champ. This one i'm not so sure about. If you consider that most of us don't have the time, money, and energy to even participate, maybe we don't want to contribute either. Nothing against it, but we might want to do something local.
Here's what I personally think is worthwhile:
1. This forum is great. 2. The website is a requirement. 3. A clear mission as to what the ASA does so joe subbuteo player can quickly and easily decide if he wants to be a part. I'm betting most of us DO!!
Just some quick ramblings. Sorry if it is redundant.
Paul
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Post by Daniel Cranston on Apr 3, 2013 13:50:10 GMT -5
I don't think a $2 entry fee to ASA sanctioned tournaments will deter anybody from entering. They either want to be ASA sanctioned or they don't. To be honest, it is challenge enough to get 3 or more players together at any given time. Paying $2 is inconsequential. Here's my (joe public subbuteo player) point of view on a few things. 1. I like the idea of a national community of players, experts, hobbyists, newcomers, etc. 2. I like national rankings and a governing body. 3. I like the idea of an annual national championship tourney. But, I won't travel very far or spend very much to get there. 4. I'm a decent player. My son is real good. We'll NEVER go to Europe to play. It just isn't how we view this game. 5. I enjoy the group of LOCAL players (we are fortunate to have a few) here. So, we might be inclined to spend 20 bucks to support our group (say get something for the bar who hosts us all the time) as opposed to sending it to the ASA. 6. The thing I enjoy most about Subbuteo is collecting my teams, building my field, and getting my butt kicked by my son. Here's some items I think the ASA would be wasting their time with: 1. Trying to provide material items to clubs such as gifts, trophies, etc. 2. Prize money for a national champ. This one i'm not so sure about. If you consider that most of us don't have the time, money, and energy to even participate, maybe we don't want to contribute either. Nothing against it, but we might want to do something local. Here's what I personally think is worthwhile: 1. This forum is great. 2. The website is a requirement. 3. A clear mission as to what the ASA does so joe subbuteo player can quickly and easily decide if he wants to be a part. I'm betting most of us DO!! Just some quick ramblings. Sorry if it is redundant. Paul Very well put. I'm curious to hear your perspective on what I mentioned at the end of my post the other day. "For instance I would be okay with potentially a stipend to the organizer/club who hosts the National tournament which doesn't have to be repaid. Perhaps relate the stipend amount to the amount of tournament fees collected throughout the year for instance. " I completely agree that the ASA shouldn't (and likely will not ever) pay the National Winner (I want a retroactive payment with interest if they do ). However, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what I quoted above from my previous post and whether or not you feel that falls under the first point you made about what the ASA shouldn't be doing. Essentially the things you list are what the ASA does ( barring the offiical Mission Statement I suppose) while keeping the $2 dollar per participant for ASA tourneys requirement. This is what lead us to this discussion in the first place is it not? The excess money just being there with no real purpose. I considered my stipend comment a bit further and decided to expand on it. I'd be curious to hear the BoDs thought on it. Purpose: To give more incentives for hosting the National Championships and put a moderate amount of that years' tournament fee income to use instead of sitting. Methodology: First, allocate the amount of money needed to go towards hosting relevant domains (forums, websites, etc). Second, depending on the amount of tournament fee income that year (as of a certain date in the year), allocate a significant percentage of that year's tournament fee income to the club/organizer selected to host the National Championship. I would consider 75-100% of the remaining tournament fee income after paying for websites as significant. This stipend would not have to repaid to the ASA. Reasoning: I feel this may be effective as it may help solve a couple issues I see currently. 1. It theortically should provide additional incentives for a club to host Nationals so that we are not caught in a situation this year where there was a lack of interest in hosting (Thanks for pulling it all together Tom!). I realize the Nationals is already given an incentive of I think $50 dollars for hosting via the "given $350" and "pay back $300" (or whatever the number was). I could double check based on tournaments added to the rankings but I would think over $150 has been raised per year over the last several year. 2. By giving a stipend to the National tournament organizer which is related to the amount of tournament fees raised throughout the year it does 2 things. a. It solves the issue of what to do with the left over money gained throughout the year going forward. The "cushion" the ASA has built up over the years will still be intact. b. It gives the amount of money going to the organizer based on the participation in playing that year. For instance previous years have had Nationals that are much more populated because they occured during a prime time in activity. The amount going to the organizer each year would reflect this. Optional: The ASA could also consider setting a min / max amount going to an organizer that they deem suitable. Potential issues: 1. Not as much savings as a majority/all of that year's income is being used. 2. The stipend not being used for improving the tournament or club. What I mean by this is hosting Nationals but not investing the stipend money into club supplies or the tournament itself. Ok. I think I spent enough time on this post for today. Thoughts?
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Post by Paul Eyes on Apr 4, 2013 9:46:38 GMT -5
Great discussion guys!
As you know, I have hosted a tournament or two, I have also traveled to play subbuteo. In all my time playing I have never paid more hat $15 for a weekend of entertainment and that has often included food. Subbuteo tournaments have never been a problem with fees in my opinion.
That being said, I can honestly say that in terms of running and financing events, I have lost money out of my own pocket every single time out. This is despite the fact that I usually have a free venue!
Just to break down a typical Holiday Silver one day event for me. My costs:
Venue: $0 Food: $100 Trophies: $220 ASA Fees after event: $30
Total: $350
Incoming: Fees from 15 players (I only charge fees to those 18 and older) $8 each = $120
Balance: Loss of $230
So why would I do it? The biggest personal reason is fellowship/fun/friendships. I usually enjoy doing it so I see it as an "investment" in my friends.hobby/fun time
Second reason is also that I can sell and do sell supplies (which are usually 20% discounted) at the events, and this helps to offset financial loss.
Once you get over 10 people or so likely to play in an event you have to start looking at getting a venue and this is certainly not cheap. For a National weekend I would say you would be looking at $400-$800 to secure a venue if you were expecting 20 plus players. Dollar amounts would vary greatly by type of location and geographic location nationwide.
This year it looks like we got close to not having a National Championships. Thank you to Tom for stepping up in the face of all his personal commitments to pull this off this year. But you have to think who in their right mind would bid on the Nationals in future knowing that they may have to find a venue for 20-30 players and essentially receive a $50 net stipend for doing so. The situation we had this year has been coming for some time. I think the BoD need to look very seriously at helping clubs with more financing for hosting the National Championships.
With regards to the $2 fee. Let me put it this way. This afternoon I start my golf league. 40 guys, 9 holes every Thursday from now until September. Fee is $25. I have a choice though. I can play alone and forget my friends, or I can pay the small fee, have a good time, get emails with handicap, match scores etc, take place in the end of season tournament etc. The point is I have a choice. I choose to play with friends and participate in a group.
The $2 tournament fee is such a nominal amount. In my view it is purely a token, a gesture if you will. A commitment to being in and supporting a group ethic. If you do not want to pay it, do not play in the ASA events, have an event with friends, all sounds good. I have hosted ASA events and non ASA events, as a person you do not need to be one or the other. I desperately wanted to play "The Brick" in St. Louis this summer, not an ASA event, but an opportunity to have a good time with friends.
My point being that these issues should not come to the point of excluding others, the ASA needs to strive to be inclusive of all with an interest in the game. You may be shocked to know that there are 100s of people playing this game in North America that we never hear from, I know that for a fact. I like the idea of a mission statement for the ASA, we need to include all players, hobbyists, collectors etc in our wording.
Paul
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